Hi everyone,
Hope you are all busy reading! Here are some questions you might like to consider whilst you read and if you have finished reading maybe you would like to make a comment on one of these discussion points.
http://books.simonandschuster.com/Her-Fearful-Symmetry/Audrey-Niffenegger/9781439165393/reading_group_guide
I have finished the book and did enjoy it. It pushed my imagination, which I welcomed because so many 'adult' books don't do this. It also forced me to question the characters and their motives and I did appreciate their realistic 'flaws'. The end completely took me by surprise and I actually had to read the last few chapters again to understand all the characters' situations better.
I look forward to discussing it further with you all - it is a little hard however to discuss until you all have finished, as I wouldn't want to give anything away...
Hi everyone
ReplyDeleteThought I may as well kick off the discussion for Her Fearful Symmetry. I was left feeling disappointed in this book. I really enjoyed the first two-thirds, but the ending let me down to the point that it detracted from the entire reading experience.
What I did enjoy about the novel was the depiction of grief. I was very moved by Robert, Martin, and Marijke's loss. I think I even got teary in the opening chapter! I also thought the descriptions of the cemetery were evocative and very interesting. I don't usually read gothic/ghosts stories, but I did get swept up initially in Elspeth's predicament.
However, all of this started going downhill when Valentina had the idea to 'die' and 'resurrect' herself. This, even in the context of a ghost story, was completely unbelievable. Her character would not go to those extremes. How about move out the apartment first? Get some co-dependency counselling? Nup - convince a ghost take your soul, place it back in your possibly decaying body, and then have nothing to do with your entire family for the rest of your life even though you are incompetent and dysfunctional. Yeah right! Moreover, why did Robert go along with it?? Because he would feared she might kill herself anyway? At least then he wouldn't have been responsible for her death! I did not believe he would take part in this ridiculous plan at all.
The 'twists' in the story were also very predictable. It was obvious Elspeth was going to end up as the twins' mother and also that she was going to 'steal' Valentina's body. I've only read two other gothic novels and I've already come across the bad-ghost-stealing-a-body plot twist before. Perhaps it's a gothic novel cliche, or perhaps I've just been unlucky.
But I didn't get one twist that maybe some other readers could explain. Robert and Jack are going through Elspeth's diaries, trying to work out why the older twins switched identities (why indeed!). Jack claims that he never slept with Elspeth, but then there is something about a party and 'the joke was supposed to be on Edie, somehow'. Does anyone understand this part? I read it several times and couldn't make sense of it.
In short, I was really enjoying this book, until it veered off into ridiculousness. I'm looking forward to seeing what other people think.
Yes I totally agree - if anyone can shed some light on the 'Jack said he didn't sleep with Elspeth, well then who did?' issue that would be great. I too re-read it several times and still don't understand it.
ReplyDeleteI also didn't think that Valentina would actually go to such great lengths to get some 'freedom' (it was very Romeo and Julietish of her!). To me she just didn't seem to have the...hmmmm well balls! There were a few very small instances where I caught a glimpse of her trying to break free from her twin, but certainly not enough to warrant her carrying out something so dramatic - or warrant me believing that she would do something like that.
I actually didn't see the 'bad ghost taking over the good new ghost's body' twist coming at all - so I really enjoyed this part of the storyline.
I love how Niffenegger takes a seemingly ordinary realistic story and adds a hint of fanciful 'what if?'
My heart went out to Martin and Marijke and I was immersed in their issues and complicated relationship. To me this was a strong and appealing subplot.
I am a sucker for reading beautifully crafted descriptions of gothic style settings, so I really embraced learning about Highgate Cemetery. My imagination easily swept through the walkways of the cemetery and I will add it to my list of 'must-sees' when I return to London one day. Has anyone ever been there?
Overall this book was a joy and a challenge to read - but I too was left a little unsatisfied with the ending.
By the way - I would recommend you copy and paste all you have written before you 'post' it. I wrote a much better comment/review (well I certainly was happier with the other one I wrote) but it disappeared when I tried to post it. :(
I really enjoyed the book. But agree, there were some flaws. I have no idea either who slept with Edie/Elspeth. That whole section confused me.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Valentina and the soul switching plot was ridiculous. I agree that there wasn't enough evidence to support her wanting to break away from her sister. She didn't once try to explain to Julia how she felt.
I did think it was interesting that the Robert mentioned in the book that Elspeth seemed different somehow now she was a ghost, that she seemed to lose all compassion - as this really did set it up to do something extreme.
I agree that I didn't think Robert should have gone along with the plan - his grief, while clearly deep, didn't seem to make him insane. I did think the Robert and Valentina dating thing was weird. I didn't get it. Yes she's stunningly beautiful and has an innocence that all men want to capture - but seriously, it just seemed so unlikely to me.
I also didn't really think that Julia was that controlling, she just had a strong opinion. Valentina needed to just have a tantrum and I think Julia would have backed off. I didn't see her as being an awful, controlling, dictatorial, tyrant at all, which is the only reason I can think that someone would want to go through this process.
However, in saying all that - I did enjoy reading it. The actual ending was a bit flat for me, when Elspeth was left with the baby and Robert was gone. It all seemed a bit pointless.
Hi all,
ReplyDeleteI was disappointed with this novel. While the imagery of the cemetery was beautiful and the narrative gave me nostalgic pangs for London, on the whole I found the characters weak and, in the twin’s case, frankly annoying. The most defined characters were the cameos, Jessica, Martin and Marijke, all of whom were much more developed than the central characters. I couldn’t help but wonder if there was slight retardation of the twins as a result of the mirror image thing!
Perhaps Niffenegger was grasping to portray 20-something Americans in London but they seemed downright weird. They didn’t speak, dress or think like 20 year old girls. I know they were meant to be atypical, but THAT atypical? Obviously she was trying to set up the whole scenario of Valentina needing to be free of the dominant Julia, but Valentina didn’t seem that mousey – she connected with the cab driver when they first arrived in London, connected with Robert and the Friends of the Cemetery, so I didn’t see her shyness all that much, although I was told she hated the tube (who didn’t?). Julia also wasn’t particularly controlling. I also found the love affair between Robert and Valentina unlikely and Martin and Julia kissing – rather gross.
It was very odd to me that the twins shared the same bed, and their wardrobe (when not, bizarrely, wearing their dead auntie’s clothes!) was just strange. Seriously have you ever seen a 20 year old wearing a floaty violet crepe dress with white stockings and black patent leather shoes? The clothes choice also seemed consistently wrong for Mouse. She liked pink and black and purple and colours and hats, but Julia didn’t like wearing black but liked white. I may be stereotyping, but I would have thought that the outgoing twin would be the colourful twin, because she liked to be the centre of attention. I also wouldn’t think she would let Valentina dress her or make clothes for her, much as she liked the samey samey business.
Also, Valentina was still having time to herself and going out alone with Robert (wearing Elspeth’s stuff) before the implausible “resurrection” plot came into play. Certainly sleeping with Robert would have been a decisive step away from Julia, but Mich is right — she didn’t have the balls. As if she’d have the balls to let herself be resurrected? The whole set up of killing Valentina was ridiculous. Again, Niffenegger “told” us that Robert and Elspeth thought she might kill herself anyway, but there was really no indication that she would have. She didn’t show any suicidal ideation, apart from the occasional philosophical comment that she couldn’t imagine death — hardly suicidal. Even when the kitten died she seemed unaffected. I also didn’t believe Robert would get involved, much less the undertaker or anyone else. It just seemed so ludicrous.
And I am with Cathy on the “saw the ghost stealing body plot and the Elspeth being their mum” twists. Particularly, when the Elspeth thinks, “What a terrible mother I would have been”. What didn’t make sense to me was the original twin swapping. It seems Jack did sleep with Elspeth, but he was drunk and didn’t remember. As for the comment, “the joke was supposed to be on Edie” – I thought that maybe it was because Edie (the real Elspeth) was the one egging him on to sleep with her “acted” twin. BUT, that didn’t explain why Elspeth, who Jack said despised him in “that cold English way”, would sleep with him, even when drunk to prove a point. It also didn’t make any sense for Jack to keep quiet if he knew about his two “wives” because Elspeth’s body changed quite a bit with pregnancy. Robert’s thoughts “Oh he didn’t know he was the father” doesn’t seem enough to make him not reveal that he knew what they had been up to, and why did he keep asking Edie if he knew why?
I was also confused by Elspeth, who seemed to be a jumble of incongruous character traits. She was witty and acerbic (says Jessica), but that didn’t really show in her ghost, she had an “out there” wardrobe and loved sky high heels, she owned a rare books business and loved to read, she kept old, faded furniture, she went along with Edie’s plan to keep the babies instead of having an abortion, but she was the “strong” twin wasn’t she? — it all just didn’t “gel” into a credible character for me. Another point with her was that Robert tells Valentina not to trust her because she “lost her compassion” as a ghost, and yet he never noticed that in any of their other automatic writing or ouija interactions. Then he goes along and trusts her anyway. It just didn’t fly with me.
ReplyDeleteTo me, it seems almost like the author pantsed it and started writing and then tried to fill in plot gaps later, which didn’t work. Overall, I found myself hanging out for the chapters that told of Martin and Marikje, but I was left deflated by Theo’s appearance to console Julia, which seemed entirely token. Julia’s grief to me was all too glossed over. Had she been that dependent on Mouse I don’t think she would have let her go or have moved on with her life with Theo. I did like the description of Valentina and the Little Kitten of Death meeting the other ghosts at the cemetery and flying crows, though.
The ending otherwise was a total anticlimax and I didn’t give a jot about Elspeth or Robert. For me, the real conclusion was really when Martin and Marijke met in Amsterdam. It’s a shame because Niffeneggar can write and I enjoyed the overall narrative and some aspects of the novel, but I found myself rolling my eyes a lot at all of the main characters in that twisted plot and wishing they weren’t all so ridiculous.